Teddy's Actions

mastercast.com · 11-10-2009, 08:46 PM

I have NO IDEA where this goes on this forum...please, someone put it where it will be read.

I read on another forum that 9mm "Critical Defense" ammo was experiencing "Failure To Fire"...I carry a Walther PPS 9X19 pistol loaded with that ammo(at least prior to today)....I went outside to the range, and shot all 15 of the rounds that I had been carrying with that pistol...ALL FIRED.(One 8 and one 7 round magazine)

I then went to the ammo locker, and took out the remaining 120 rounds of Hornady "Critical Defense" 9X19 ammo with the same 115 grain FTX bullets. I loaded them in the Walther Magazines, and attempted to fire them. I had 38 out of 120 rounds fail to fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I put those same 38 rounds that failed to fire in pistols of different manufacture...CZ, Browning, Glock, Colt, Kahr, Rorhbaugh, Springfield, etc.. They still would not fire, after repeated hits from all of those firiing pins from different pistols.

Hornady "Critical Defense" ammo is over $1.00 a shot(after taxes).......I would expect better from them for that price.

Mike

Excalibur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamerer

With a 1 in 3 failure rate, my first suspicion would have been light primer strikes. That's just too high a rate for primer failure. My first move would have been to try it in another 9mm as a test.

You should try talking to Kahr about evaluating your firing system.

You should research other forums on this subject....Many more guns than mine are experiencing the same problem. I did talk with Kahr -- they offered to examine the gun if I have the problem with various ammo but they were very doubtful it is the gun if I have the failure with only Critical Defense ammo.

dcsans · #27 11-07-2009, 02:05 PM

Excaliber- This is one of the reasons it is imperative that you test your carry ammo in your carry gun. Kudos to you for testing first! I am very disappointed in the response from Hornady, but I am glad you found out at a range rather then when you really needed it

Hank Ellis · 11-07-2009, 05:39 PM

I was at Clark Custom Guns a couple months back picking up one gun and dropping another for some work. While there the subject of J-frames came up. We talked about our carry loads and one of the gunsmiths had tried the Hornady CD in his J-frame. He ran into the same failure to fire issues.

If a gunsmith from one of the top shops in the country has ammo that don't fire, it ain't the gun.

swmp9jrm · 11-23-2009, 10:38 PM

As mentioned a while back in this thread, I had 2 rounds out of the first 10 rounds of a box of Critical Defense that did not go bang on the first strike with my Taurus PT-709. I've put more than a dozen other types of FMJ and JHP ammunition - more than 750 rounds - through this same gun with NO issues. Wolf, Golden Bear, Tula, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, American Eagle, and PMC Bronze. Cheap ammo, premium ammo - NO OTHER FAILURE TO FIRE rounds with ANY of these EXCEPT the Critical Defense.

It ain't the gun. Or at least ONLY the gun. The 2 rounds that did not fire in my gun DID fire on the second strike in the same gun. I still have 6 boxes of CD in my safe. I'm going to keep shooting this stuff to see if I get any more no-fires. But I'm not going to count on it to save my life. I'm disappointed in the response that Excalibur got from Hornady - if they freely admit that they've had more of this ammo come back for the same issue than the other things they make, simple problem analysis says there's got to be an issue. But I guess I understand their position - admit an issue, and you've got probably hundreds of thousands of rounds at risk and no way to figure out which ones will fire and which ones won't unless you hit that primer with a firing pin. I've chosen not to be the lab rat. I'll stick to my Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot - I've never had a no-fire with either of these in ANY gun or in ANY caliber.

NonPCnraRN · 12-05-2009, 02:32 AM

Just a thought. Since you changed the firing pin spring and had the same results could the firing pin itself be a tiny bit short? If your firing pin is the correct length then just accept the fact that that ammo is not reliable in your gun. Long story short just don't use it, period. There are too many other good brands of ammo out there. But I do want to commend you for bringing it to our attention. I would think that if Hornady knows it has a problem with light primer strikes, then they should get a new primer supplier. The fact that other brands of ammo works in your gun means Hornady is using very tempermental primers that do not allow for any variance from "standard". That is simply not acceptable in a product marketed as Critical Defense ammo. Critical Defense should imply that it would work in a zip gun with a firing pin powered by a rubber band.

Excalibur · 10-23-2009, 07:02 PM

I bought 4 boxes of the new Hornady Critical Defense ammo in 9mm. Yesterday I got a chance to try it out and what a disappointment!! One out of every 3 rounds was a misfire. The hammer left pronounced indentations on the primers but the rounds were duds. Some I even put back in and tried again with the same result. Now I had two hammer indentations on the primer but no fire!
Today I went to the range and with the same gun (Kahr CW9) I fired my normal carry round, Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. with not a single misfire. Then I ran 50 rounds of Federal American Eagle hard ball with again, not a single misfire.
I'm going to contact Hornady for a refund but needless to say, I would never carry their Critical Defense round.

HAIL CAESAR · 10-24-2009, 12:34 AM

Ohhhhh, I'm sure Hornady would love to hear about this and want all the ammo you have left shipped back and the boxes. Trust me, they will be very interested.

ShipWreck · #3 10-24-2009, 08:24 AM

This topic has gone on for a few months on multiple boards. So, its not new (just maybe new here) They changed the primers design, and the new primers are supposedly copper colored instead of silver colored now. But, there are still reports.

I bought a box and planned to use it as my new carry ammo after I fired about 1/2 of it.

I just thru it in the back of my safe instead. Even if I get thru 1/2, I'll have my doubts. True, the likely hood is diminished that if I get thru 1/2 with no issues, the other 1/2 may be okay. But, I've seen reports of just a few in the box being bad.

So, for now, I'll pass on this ammo for alt least the next year. Irritating.

I have never had a misfire on any commercial centerfire cartridge before. It's disappointing to hear this. And, it is a self defense round.

Excalibur · 10-26-2009, 03:14 PM

Today I talked with Doug at Hornady. He immediately said they want them back to find out what is going on. He instructed me to send them back via UPS but I had to ask him to pay for the shipping and he reluctantly agreed. I told him that since they manufactured the ammo and I already paid for it I didn't feel that they should ask me to be out any more cash because the ammo is defective. So UPS is picking it up tomorrow. I'll post the results from Hornady when I get an answer.
BTW -- Doug said they don't manufacture primers. They buy them from a supplier so I'm sure the supplier will hear about it also.

Excalibur · 11-05-2009, 08:07 PM

Well, today the rep from Hornady called me and said it was my gun!!! He said he measured headspace, etc. on the rounds and everything was in specs. Then he took it to the range and fired some from a Glock and a couple other guns and did not have a FTF. He said the specs for primer indent is .0117 and the rounds I sent back that had failed in my gun showed indents of .0113. (I think I got that right, maybe it was .017). So the only thing they will do is return the ammo to me!
I again repeated that right after their ammo failed to fire I shot Gold Dots, Federal American Eagle and UMC without one failure. Didn't matter -- it's my gun. I told him that I had done some research online and found that others were having the same problem with Critical Defense ammo -- I'm not the only one and only then did he admit that they have had numerous returns of that ammo for the same reason -- failure to fire. But he refused to do anything but return the ammo. I asked him to explain why my gun didn't have a problem with any other ammo and he said he couldn't comment on other brands.
So I'm getting the ammo back. Don't know what I'll do with it but you can bet I'll never trust my life with it. I know Hornady is a good company but this is really disappointing. I'll stick with Gold Dots that have NEVER failed!

Amos Iron Wolf · 11-05-2009, 10:46 PM

A guy was testing a Rorbaugh (sp?) 9mm at the range this Sunday. He was also having problems with Hornady Critical Defense ammo. Same thing, primers indented, but no bang.

Excalibur · 11-07-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by den888

Thanks for the report. I will be sure to never buy or carry this ammo. Could you imagine the consequences in a defense weapon if this happened ? Yikes !!!

I am not trying to badmouth Hornady. I know they make some good ammo. However I was really disappointed in their response that it is my gun and there is nothing they can do. Maybe it does fire okay in Glocks!! I don't own a Glock. My Kahr fires everything else successfully so I'm not buying their excuse. AND after researching this a little I've found out that a good number of people are having this problem with Critical Defense ammo. The guy at Hornady even admitted as much!!
What I don't understand is that they know they have a problem with ammo that is designed to save one's life in a confrontation. It has a high failure rate that could cost one's life and they still want to blame it on the gun????

mtnrunner260 · 06-18-2009, 11:22 PM

Picked up a couple boxes of this ammo the other day and shot 25 rounds today through a 9mm subcompact.

Accuracy and recoil seemed right in line with other ammo I've shot.

The problem was 2 of the rounds didn't fire.
The first looked like a light primer strike, my boss agreed (former instructor and a glock armoror) so he knows alot more than me.
So put it back in the mag and it failed to fire again but the primer looked like other rounds that had fired.

Set that one aside and had another ftf on the next mag. Primer strike looked good on this one. Tried it again as well with no luck.

Fired approximately 200 rds of mainly storebought blazer brass and winchester along with my first 20 handloads.

Later had my boss load the ftf's randomly in the mag so I could do some malfunction drills... and they both fired on the 3rd attempt

The lot # is 3090679

Here are a couple pics of one I found in the dirt.
Expansion looks good and you can see a bit of the polymer still attached.

Just thought I would share my experiance and would like to hear your thoughts on this ammo.

DigMe · 06-18-2009, 11:44 PM

There have been some serious quality control issues wiu hornady critical defense and when it works it has not tested well in calibrated ballisic gelatin. That's plenty of reason for me to stay away from the stuff.

brad

OCD1 · 10-06-2009, 04:56 PM

I'll just stick with what I know has always worked in all my 9mm's and .380's

Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers

Will update after Hornady inspects these rounds but no matter what they do or say I will not buy or use Critical Defense ammo. Their regular .380 and .32 auto work fine in my mouse guns so I do not know why they had to mess with success.?

renegade1alpha · October 19, 2009, 08:41 AM

I would like to share an experience with everyone that I recently had with Hornady's new Critical Defense ammunition. I'm wondering if anyone else has had the same problem.

I recently had to qualify with my duty weapon and off duty weapon for my department and thought it would be a good chance to see how the new ammo shot through my off duty weapon (Kahr CW9). The first round went off great and the recoil was just what I expected and the bullet went right where I was aiming. When I pulled the trigger a second time all I got was a click from the firing pin striking the primer. I ejected that round, chambered another and squeezed the trigger...click. Nothing. Again I ejected that round, chambered another and squeezed the trigger... BANG! Just what I was wanting. On trigger squeeze #4 I got another bang, but #5 and #6 all I got was the click of the firing pin striking the primer.

I picked up the rounds that I had ejected and looked at the primers. All the rounds had nice dents on the primers. I put them back in the magazine and on the second strikes three of the four rounds fired.

Thinking that something might even be wrong with my off duty gun, I loaded some more rounds into my duty weapon (Glock 17) and attempted to fire. Of the ten rounds I loaded in my Glock magazine only eight of them fired. Two of them had nice dents on the primers but didnt go bang until I put them back in the magazine and attempted to fire them again. This time they fired.

The scariest part about this whole situation is that I had been carrying these rounds in my off duty gun before testing them. (I know, stupid on my part)

I have since contacted Hornady and told them of the problem and I have yet to hear back from them. That was over 3 weeks ago. I plan on calling them and personally speaking with a representative. I have used Hornady ammo in the past without any problems which is why I never saw need to test fire any of the rounds before carrying them. I have since switched to Buffalo Bore 124 grain +P hollow points (using Hornady XTP bullets) and have not had a problem.

renegade1alpha · October 20, 2009, 12:50 PM

I just got off the phone with Hornady and spoke with a technician. Apparently they had not received my e-mail or had not gotten to it yet. He asked if I had the rounds that I had fired, and unfortunately I didn't. I also didn't save the box to give him a lot number. After talking with him he and I both agreed that I must have gotten a bad batch. He did apologize and said that if I had anymore problems with Hornady ammo to save the box and any ammunition and send it back to them for a full replacement. They were very apologetic and very helpful. I would suggest if you have any Hornady CD ammo to try a box or a least a few rounds before you carry it. Of course I do that with any ammo I buy for self defense, I just didnt do it with that particular brand. I'm sure the rest of the Hornady ammo is good and I may buy some more CD when it comes time to rotate the current stuff I have.

Hank Ellis · 11-07-2009, 05:39 PM

I was at Clark Custom Guns a couple months back picking up one gun and dropping another for some work. While there the subject of J-frames came up. We talked about our carry loads and one of the gunsmiths had tried the Hornady CD in his J-frame. He ran into the same failure to fire issues.

If a gunsmith from one of the top shops in the country has ammo that don't fire, it ain't the gun.

swmp9jrm · August 29, 2009, 11:25 PM

Over on the Handgun forum on AR15.com, someone has posted about a failure to fire issue on a couple of rounds of 9mm Critical Defense. There was another post from someone who had had the same problem and spoke to Hornady about it. Apparently, Hornady changed from a nickel colored primer to a brass colored primer to address a no-fire issue. However, the CD that the OP had the problem with had the brass primer.

Now I do not normally spread rumors and innuendos, but since the Critical Defense seems to be gaining popularity, I'd like to hear if anyone here has had any failures to fire using these rounds. I just picked up a bunch of it for my PT-709, and now I plan to put a bunch of it through the gun to see if I've got any problems.

shovelwrench

Man, it looks like the whole face of the primer is collapsed into that firing pin strike.

I think they should've gone off. It might be a just a bad combination, but is'nt that why we test for reliability? Maybe you'll get some free ammo anyway.

357larry · #10 10-05-2009, 11:54 PM

Definately looks like they should have gone bang. I will remember to avoid Hornady loaded ammo. It doesn't look like your firing pin is unnecessarily pointed to me, maybe narrower than most. I'd bet it was a
defective batch of primers.

swmp9jrm

Over on the Handgun forum on AR15.com, someone has posted about a failure to fire issue on a couple of rounds of 9mm Critical Defense. There was another post from someone who had had the same problem and spoke to Hornady about it. Apparently, Hornady changed from a nickel colored primer to a brass colored primer to address a no-fire issue. However, the CD that the OP had the problem with had the brass primer.

Patrice · August 30, 2009, 12:56 PM

Well, if I owned any guns...I'd be more concerned about the reports of failures-to-fire with the CD cartridges than I would be about the question about whether it expands better or worse than brand-X or whether it has enough velocity. There's a number of threads floating about on several of the gun forums reporting multiple failures-to-fire-per-box . Not the kinda thing one wants to hear about a Self-Defense cartridge, I would think.

barton72 · October 13, 2009, 08:47 AM

Just found this forum and thread while searching the net to see if failure to fires with the Hornady Critical defense was common or if it was just me. Seems to be a real issue. I have a Ruger LCP 380. Picked up two boxes of 25 @ Bass Pro a while back. I have shot several magazines of Remington UMC without a single problem. Fired very few Remington Golden Sabers as well and had no problems. Two out of four attempts to fire the Hornady Critical defense went boom. The other two just "Click". Perfect strike in the center of the primer on both failures. Both boxes are from the same Lot# and have a nickel primer.

I only attempted to fire the four rounds. With a success rate of 50% (2 out of 4), I have ZERO confidence in this ammo. I have spoken to Hornady and will be shipping the two boxes off today. I wanted a refund of my $$, but they won't do that and neither will Bass Pro. Instead Hornady said they will ship me out the same crap that I don't trust at all + some extra for my troubles. That's great. Maybe they have changed primers and fixed the issue, but I still won't be carrying this stuff or buying any other Hornady products. One lesson learned, always test your ammo! Links to other problems with the CD....

Pistol LCP	Caliber:	.380 Auto
	Barrel Length:	2.75"
	Grip:	Glass-Filled Nylon
	Rear Sight:	Fixed
	Suggested Retail Price:	$ 330.00

06-18-2009, 11:44 PM	#2
DigMe XDTalk 2K Member DigMe is offline Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Waco, TX Posts: 2,130	There have been some serious quality control issues wiu hornady critical defense and when it works it has not tested well in calibrated ballisic gelatin. That's plenty of reason for me to stay away from the stuff. brad __________________ This space for rent. .jpgs and .gifs need not apply.

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