Monday, February 14, 2011
GLOCK GEN. 4 AFTER MARKET GUIDE RODS
Wednesday, February 02, 2011
"SHOTGUNS IN JEPARDY"
| Proposed Shotgun Import Ban Shows Need To Change Law |
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| Friday, January 28, 2011 |
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| On Thursday, Jan. 27, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives released a Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns, which proposes that “military shotguns, or shotguns with common military features that are unsuitable for traditional shotgun sports” be prohibited from importation. This would apply to all shotguns—not just semi-automatics. As in previous “working group” studies on rifles, the study fails to give proper credit to the widespread use of these guns in newer shooting sports, or to their adaptability to hunting. The study underscores the need for Congress to change the firearm importation law. That law requires the Attorney General to approve the importation of any firearm “generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.” This “sporting purposes” test was imposed by the Gun Control Act in 1968, a time when the right to self-defense with a firearm was not as widely respected by the courts as it is today. Clearly, the main reason to change the law is that the Second Amendment—as the Supreme Court said in District of Columbia v. Heller—protects our right to keep and bear arms for defense, not for sports. In its 2008 Heller decision, the court observed that “the inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right” and ruled that the Second Amendment protects “the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation,” particularly within the home, where “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute.” The court also dismissed the notion that the amendment doesn’t protect modern arms, saying “Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms.” Another reason to change the law is to end the BATFE’s 22-year history of misinterpreting it. In 1989, the bureau banned the importation of semi-automatic rifles, claiming they were not used for “organized marksmanship competition.” (In fact, the banned guns were of the type most commonly used by competitors in the most popular marksmanship competitions in the United States—the National Matches, and the hundreds of local, state and regional competitions that precede the national events each year.) In 1998, BATFE expanded the ban, absurdly claiming that semi-automatic rifles’ “suitability for this activity [marksmanship competition] is limited.” At the time, a Clinton White House official said “we’re taking the law and bending it as far as we can to capture a whole new class of guns.” Now, BATFE is bending the law one more time. As this issue develops, the NRA will be looking at every legislative and legal option to bring our firearms import laws back in line with the Constitution. NRA members and other concerned gun owners can submit comments on the study until May 1, 2011. Comments may be submitted by e-mail to shotgunstudy@atf.gov or by fax to (202)648-9601. Faxed comments may not exceed five pages. All comments must include name and mailing address. |
Saturday, December 26, 2009
HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMUNITION
SATURDAY - DECEMBER 29, 2009
SUGGEST "HORNADY" COMPLAIN ABOUT "CONSUMER REPORTS"
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YOU MUST GO TO THIS LINK NOW
EVERYTHING WRITTEN ON THIS WEBSITE "LINK" WAS DONE BY SOME ONE ELSE...
http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Rohrbaugh.htm
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THE FOLLOWING ARE POSTINGS FROM VARIOUS FORUMS EVERYWHERE REGARDING OTHER PEOPLE HAVING IGNITION PROBLEMS WITH HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMO. A FEW WEEKS AGO WHEN I CALLED HORNADY INQUIRING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM AND I SPOKE WITH "GUS" OR "DOUG" (I AM OLDER AND MY MEMORY IS HARD WITH NAMES) AT THE HORNADY FACTORY AS EVERYONE WAS OFF HUNTING FOR THREE WEEKS HE TOLD ME STRAIGHT OUT THAT THEY WERE FORCED TO BUY AND USE S&B PRIMERS OR GO OUT OF THE AMMUNITION BUSINESS. WOLFF PRIMERS CAME UP IN THE CONVERSATION. ONE OF MY CUSTOMERS HAS BEEN SPEAKING WITH "MARK" AT THE HORNADY FACTORY. I NO LONGER GO THE RANGE REGULARLY AND I HAVE NEVER ATTEMPTED TO TRY OR FIRE ANY HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMUNITION. EVEN WHEN I SPOKE WITH LARRY SEECAMP HE TOLD ME HE HAD MISFIRES WITH HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMO IN BRAND NEW PRODUCTION PISTOLS. I DO NOT AND I WILL NEVER BUY ANYTHING WITH S&B RELATED COMPONENTS BECAUSE OF BAD EXPERIENCES I HAD MANY YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS MUCH YOUNGER. I ONLY PERSONALLY BUY AND CARRY FEDERAL OR CORBON AMMUNITION FOR MYSELF.
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ALL COMMENTS LISTED BELOW ARE FROM OTHER PEOPLE AND NOT ME. I ONLY KNOW WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TOLD ME ABOUT HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMO INCLUDING THE EMPLOYEES THAT WORK FOR JASON HORNADY. THEY SEEM TO HAVE AN INTERNAL PROBLEM AND THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SOME ONE TO BLAME. ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS LOOK IN THEIR OWN MIRROR, ITS NOT ME OR YOU. I HAVE NEVER FIRED ANY OF THEIR AMMUNITION, I USE FEDERAL. I HOPE STEVE HORNADY THE FATHER IS AWARE OF WHAT HIS SON JASON IS DOING.
....................................................................................
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/103509-do-these-primers-look-like-they-should-have-gone-bang-response-hornady-added.html
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http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1234473398
....................................................................................
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=2425489
...................................................................................
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=715082
...................................................................................
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/103135-has-anyone-read-experianced-problems-hornady-cd-ammo.html#post1122872
...................................................................................
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=716113
...................................................................................
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=82191
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The following is quoted from a Hornady box of ammo: "We Guarantee the exercise of reasonable care in the manufacture of this ammunition, but assume no further responsibility, expressed or implied."
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Uhhh, maybe so, but ammo that is touted as "CRITICAL DEFENSE" designed to save one's life but that won't fire in a number of different types and makes of guns and only works if a gun is 100% perfectly in spec is NOT my idea of an ammo I want to use to defend my life. I've tested many different quality hollow points in my gun with NO problems. You can bet one of those will not be Hornady's Critical Defense!! I just hope no one experiences a tragedy from this ammo.
And, keep in mind the rep at Hornady finally admitted to me that they have had an unusual amount of this ammo returned for the same FTF problem. What irritates me is that because the ammo is up to "specs" they won't do anything about it.
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You're right!! It ain't the gun no matter what Hornady says. My gun has fired without problem any other ammo I've run through it so why are they trying to tell me it's my gun????
Here's the latest (and final) from Hornady....I sent 3 1/2 boxes of the CD back. They then called me as mentioned earlier and told me it was my gun and all they would do is send the ammo back to me. A few days later I received 1 (ONE) box in the mail. I called and was told they would check into it. The next day I got a call from another person saying they would return all three boxes. Wow, what a favor since I paid for it in the first place!!
Again, I beleive Hornady is a good company and a lot of people will not agree with me but I'm done with them. There are too many other companies making quality ammo to put up with this type of hassle. I'll stick with Speer Gold Dot for my carry ammo!
Freedom of speech in the United States
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and by many state constitutions and state and federal laws. Criticism of the government and advocacy of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy, such as racism, are generally permitted. There are exceptions to the general protection of speech, however, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. Other limitations on free speech often balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as property rights for authors and inventors (copyright), interests in "fair" political campaigns (Campaign finance laws), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on Hate speech or fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are often made between speech and other acts which may have symbolic significance. Efforts have been made to ban flag desecration, for example, though currently that act remains protected speech.
.........................................................................................................................................................................SUGGEST "HORNADY" COMPLAIN ABOUT "CONSUMER REPORTS"
........................................................................................................................................................................
YOU MUST GO TO THIS LINK NOW
EVERYTHING WRITTEN ON THIS WEBSITE "LINK" WAS DONE BY SOME ONE ELSE...
http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Rohrbaugh.htm
........................................................................................................................................................................
THE FOLLOWING ARE POSTINGS FROM VARIOUS FORUMS EVERYWHERE REGARDING OTHER PEOPLE HAVING IGNITION PROBLEMS WITH HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMO. A FEW WEEKS AGO WHEN I CALLED HORNADY INQUIRING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM AND I SPOKE WITH "GUS" OR "DOUG" (I AM OLDER AND MY MEMORY IS HARD WITH NAMES) AT THE HORNADY FACTORY AS EVERYONE WAS OFF HUNTING FOR THREE WEEKS HE TOLD ME STRAIGHT OUT THAT THEY WERE FORCED TO BUY AND USE S&B PRIMERS OR GO OUT OF THE AMMUNITION BUSINESS. WOLFF PRIMERS CAME UP IN THE CONVERSATION. ONE OF MY CUSTOMERS HAS BEEN SPEAKING WITH "MARK" AT THE HORNADY FACTORY. I NO LONGER GO THE RANGE REGULARLY AND I HAVE NEVER ATTEMPTED TO TRY OR FIRE ANY HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMUNITION. EVEN WHEN I SPOKE WITH LARRY SEECAMP HE TOLD ME HE HAD MISFIRES WITH HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMO IN BRAND NEW PRODUCTION PISTOLS. I DO NOT AND I WILL NEVER BUY ANYTHING WITH S&B RELATED COMPONENTS BECAUSE OF BAD EXPERIENCES I HAD MANY YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS MUCH YOUNGER. I ONLY PERSONALLY BUY AND CARRY FEDERAL OR CORBON AMMUNITION FOR MYSELF.
.........................................................................................................................................................................
ALL COMMENTS LISTED BELOW ARE FROM OTHER PEOPLE AND NOT ME. I ONLY KNOW WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TOLD ME ABOUT HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE AMMO INCLUDING THE EMPLOYEES THAT WORK FOR JASON HORNADY. THEY SEEM TO HAVE AN INTERNAL PROBLEM AND THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SOME ONE TO BLAME. ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS LOOK IN THEIR OWN MIRROR, ITS NOT ME OR YOU. I HAVE NEVER FIRED ANY OF THEIR AMMUNITION, I USE FEDERAL. I HOPE STEVE HORNADY THE FATHER IS AWARE OF WHAT HIS SON JASON IS DOING.
....................................................................................
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/103509-do-these-primers-look-like-they-should-have-gone-bang-response-hornady-added.html
....................................................................................
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1234473398
....................................................................................
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=2425489
...................................................................................
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=715082
...................................................................................
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/103135-has-anyone-read-experianced-problems-hornady-cd-ammo.html#post1122872
...................................................................................
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=716113
...................................................................................
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=82191
...................................................................................
The following is quoted from a Hornady box of ammo: "We Guarantee the exercise of reasonable care in the manufacture of this ammunition, but assume no further responsibility, expressed or implied."
I cannot find this statement on any other manufacturer's box.
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 11-10-2009, 08:46 PM | #1 |
| Boolit Buddy Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62 | 9mm Hornady "Critical Defense Ammo" I have NO IDEA where this goes on this forum...please, someone put it where it will be read. I read on another forum that 9mm "Critical Defense" ammo was experiencing "Failure To Fire"...I carry a Walther PPS 9X19 pistol loaded with that ammo(at least prior to today)....I went outside to the range, and shot all 15 of the rounds that I had been carrying with that pistol...ALL FIRED.(One 8 and one 7 round magazine) I then went to the ammo locker, and took out the remaining 120 rounds of Hornady "Critical Defense" 9X19 ammo with the same 115 grain FTX bullets. I loaded them in the Walther Magazines, and attempted to fire them. I had 38 out of 120 rounds fail to fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I put those same 38 rounds that failed to fire in pistols of different manufacture...CZ, Browning, Glock, Colt, Kahr, Rorhbaugh, Springfield, etc.. They still would not fire, after repeated hits from all of those firiing pins from different pistols. Hornady "Critical Defense" ammo is over $1.00 a shot(after taxes).......I would expect better from them for that price. Mike |
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__________________ "This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. O’Rourke  |
| #27  11-07-2009, 02:05 PM | ||||
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| Excaliber- This is one of the reasons it is imperative that you test your carry ammo in your carry gun. Kudos to you for testing first! I am very disappointed in the response from Hornady, but I am glad you found out at a range rather then when you really needed it  __________________ "All truth passes through 3 stages... 1st it is ridiculed, 2nd it is violently opposed, 3rd it is accepted as being self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher |
| 11-07-2009, 05:39 PM | |||
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| I was at Clark Custom Guns a couple months back picking up one gun and dropping another for some work. While there the subject of J-frames came up. We talked about our carry loads and one of the gunsmiths had tried the Hornady CD in his J-frame. He ran into the same failure to fire issues. If a gunsmith from one of the top shops in the country has ammo that don't fire, it ain't the gun. __________________ A mind is like a parachute. Neither functions properly unless fully opened. My name is Hank and I'm an IPSC shooter. |
Uhhh, maybe so, but ammo that is touted as "CRITICAL DEFENSE" designed to save one's life but that won't fire in a number of different types and makes of guns and only works if a gun is 100% perfectly in spec is NOT my idea of an ammo I want to use to defend my life. I've tested many different quality hollow points in my gun with NO problems. You can bet one of those will not be Hornady's Critical Defense!! I just hope no one experiences a tragedy from this ammo.
And, keep in mind the rep at Hornady finally admitted to me that they have had an unusual amount of this ammo returned for the same FTF problem. What irritates me is that because the ammo is up to "specs" they won't do anything about it.
__________________
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns."
-- P.J. O’Rourke
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-- P.J. O’Rourke
 11-23-2009, 10:38 PM | |||
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| As mentioned a while back in this thread, I had 2 rounds out of the first 10 rounds of a box of Critical Defense that did not go bang on the first strike with my Taurus PT-709. I've put more than a dozen other types of FMJ and JHP ammunition - more than 750 rounds - through this same gun with NO issues. Wolf, Golden Bear, Tula, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Speer, American Eagle, and PMC Bronze. Cheap ammo, premium ammo - NO OTHER FAILURE TO FIRE rounds with ANY of these EXCEPT the Critical Defense. It ain't the gun. Or at least ONLY the gun. The 2 rounds that did not fire in my gun DID fire on the second strike in the same gun. I still have 6 boxes of CD in my safe. I'm going to keep shooting this stuff to see if I get any more no-fires. But I'm not going to count on it to save my life. I'm disappointed in the response that Excalibur got from Hornady - if they freely admit that they've had more of this ammo come back for the same issue than the other things they make, simple problem analysis says there's got to be an issue. But I guess I understand their position - admit an issue, and you've got probably hundreds of thousands of rounds at risk and no way to figure out which ones will fire and which ones won't unless you hit that primer with a firing pin. I've chosen not to be the lab rat. I'll stick to my Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot - I've never had a no-fire with either of these in ANY gun or in ANY caliber. |
You're right!! It ain't the gun no matter what Hornady says. My gun has fired without problem any other ammo I've run through it so why are they trying to tell me it's my gun????
Here's the latest (and final) from Hornady....I sent 3 1/2 boxes of the CD back. They then called me as mentioned earlier and told me it was my gun and all they would do is send the ammo back to me. A few days later I received 1 (ONE) box in the mail. I called and was told they would check into it. The next day I got a call from another person saying they would return all three boxes. Wow, what a favor since I paid for it in the first place!!
Again, I beleive Hornady is a good company and a lot of people will not agree with me but I'm done with them. There are too many other companies making quality ammo to put up with this type of hassle. I'll stick with Speer Gold Dot for my carry ammo!
__________________
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns."
-- P.J. O’Rourke
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My thoughts exactly! I'm not denying the ammo works fine in some other guns and I am going to obtain the exact length of the firing pin from Kahr to make sure mine is okay. HOWEVER, as you so well expressed, they are advertising this new ammo as the ultimate self defense ammo yet the Hornady rep clearly stated that they are having an unusual amount of it returned due to FTF's. Others can trust their lives to it....me? Never! It will not go back in my gun. Anyone interested in 3 boxes of it???
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns."
-- P.J. O’Rourke
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| 12-05-2009, 02:32 AM | |||
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| Just a thought. Since you changed the firing pin spring and had the same results could the firing pin itself be a tiny bit short? If your firing pin is the correct length then just accept the fact that that ammo is not reliable in your gun. Long story short just don't use it, period. There are too many other good brands of ammo out there. But I do want to commend you for bringing it to our attention. I would think that if Hornady knows it has a problem with light primer strikes, then they should get a new primer supplier. The fact that other brands of ammo works in your gun means Hornady is using very tempermental primers that do not allow for any variance from "standard". That is simply not acceptable in a product marketed as Critical Defense ammo. Critical Defense should imply that it would work in a zip gun with a firing pin powered by a rubber band. |
My thoughts exactly! I'm not denying the ammo works fine in some other guns and I am going to obtain the exact length of the firing pin from Kahr to make sure mine is okay. HOWEVER, as you so well expressed, they are advertising this new ammo as the ultimate self defense ammo yet the Hornady rep clearly stated that they are having an unusual amount of it returned due to FTF's. Others can trust their lives to it....me? Never! It will not go back in my gun. Anyone interested in 3 boxes of it???
__________________
"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns."
-- P.J. O’Rourke
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Gender:
Re: New Hornady Critical Defense
Reply #27 - 11/28/09 at 21:19:06 I had the chance to fire my first 25 rounds of Hornady Critical Defense from my P3AT today. I had four failures to fire. 
Overall I fired about 100 rounds total: Independence FMJ, Golden Sabers, Magtech FMJ and the Hornady Critical Defense. The only ammo that gave me any trouble was the HCD. I checked the primers on the rounds that didn't go off and they were dimpled. I loaded them up again and they went off on the second try.
To my recollection, these are the only failures to fire I've ever expereinced with any of my P3AT's. I had one failure to eject (I had carried and not cleaned the gun in 3 mo. - now I clean it every two weeks regardless) and the two squib rounds I mentioned elsewhere a few days ago. But this was the only ammo in 380 I recall ever firing that just didn't go bang.
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Hi Rubb! Yes, the price couldn't have been better. Thank you again for "funding" this little experiment.
Sadly, though, it looks like I am by no means the first to run into these failures to fire with HCD. That really is too bad. The round seemed so promising. I guess I'll stick to Gold Dots (when I can find them) and the Independence FMJ. The Independence stuff seems pretty hot just based upon felt recoil. Staggering them with Gold Dots seems like a good plan for me.
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"This country was founded by religious nuts with guns."
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| 10-23-2009, 07:02 PM | |||
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| Problem with Hornady Critical Defense I bought 4 boxes of the new Hornady Critical Defense ammo in 9mm. Yesterday I got a chance to try it out and what a disappointment!! One out of every 3 rounds was a misfire. The hammer left pronounced indentations on the primers but the rounds were duds. Some I even put back in and tried again with the same result. Now I had two hammer indentations on the primer but no fire!  Today I went to the range and with the same gun (Kahr CW9) I fired my normal carry round, Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. with not a single misfire. Then I ran 50 rounds of Federal American Eagle hard ball with again, not a single misfire. I'm going to contact Hornady for a refund but needless to say, I would never carry their Critical Defense round. __________________ "This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. O’Rourke |
| 10-24-2009, 12:34 AM | |||
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| Ohhhhh, I'm sure Hornady would love to hear about this and want all the ammo you have left shipped back and the boxes. Trust me, they will be very interested. __________________ Greetings! The above words are my opinion only. If you disagree, I'm sorry. Please feel free to PM me for a discussion. |
| #3 10-24-2009, 08:24 AM | |||
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| This topic has gone on for a few months on multiple boards. So, its not new (just maybe new here) They changed the primers design, and the new primers are supposedly copper colored instead of silver colored now. But, there are still reports. I bought a box and planned to use it as my new carry ammo after I fired about 1/2 of it. I just thru it in the back of my safe instead. Even if I get thru 1/2, I'll have my doubts. True, the likely hood is diminished that if I get thru 1/2 with no issues, the other 1/2 may be okay. But, I've seen reports of just a few in the box being bad. So, for now, I'll pass on this ammo for alt least the next year. Irritating. I have never had a misfire on any commercial centerfire cartridge before. It's disappointing to hear this. And, it is a self defense round. |
| 10-26-2009, 03:14 PM | |||
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| Update from Hornady Today I talked with Doug at Hornady. He immediately said they want them back to find out what is going on. He instructed me to send them back via UPS but I had to ask him to pay for the shipping and he reluctantly agreed. I told him that since they manufactured the ammo and I already paid for it I didn't feel that they should ask me to be out any more cash because the ammo is defective. So UPS is picking it up tomorrow. I'll post the results from Hornady when I get an answer. BTW -- Doug said they don't manufacture primers. They buy them from a supplier so I'm sure the supplier will hear about it also. __________________ "This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. O’Rourke |
| 11-05-2009, 08:07 PM | |||
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| Update from Hornady Well, today the rep from Hornady called me and said it was my gun!!!  He said he measured headspace, etc. on the rounds and everything was in specs. Then he took it to the range and fired some from a Glock and a couple other guns and did not have a FTF. He said the specs for primer indent is .0117 and the rounds I sent back that had failed in my gun showed indents of .0113. (I think I got that right, maybe it was .017). So the only thing they will do is return the ammo to me!I again repeated that right after their ammo failed to fire I shot Gold Dots, Federal American Eagle and UMC without one failure. Didn't matter -- it's my gun. I told him that I had done some research online and found that others were having the same problem with Critical Defense ammo -- I'm not the only one and only then did he admit that they have had numerous returns of that ammo for the same reason -- failure to fire. But he refused to do anything but return the ammo. I asked him to explain why my gun didn't have a problem with any other ammo and he said he couldn't comment on other brands. So I'm getting the ammo back. Don't know what I'll do with it but you can bet I'll never trust my life with it. I know Hornady is a good company but this is really disappointing. I'll stick with Gold Dots that have NEVER failed! __________________ "This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. O’Rourke |
| 11-05-2009, 10:46 PM | |||
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| A guy was testing a Rorbaugh (sp?) 9mm at the range this Sunday. He was also having problems with Hornady Critical Defense ammo. Same thing, primers indented, but no bang. __________________ When the range is conversation distance, there is no time to talk. Amos Iron Wolf The more I'm around people, the more I love my dog. And she annoys the hell out of me sometimes! AIW |
| 11-07-2009, 01:38 PM | |||
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| Quote:
What I don't understand is that they know they have a problem with ammo that is designed to save one's life in a confrontation. It has a high failure rate that could cost one's life and they still want to blame it on the gun???? __________________ "This country was founded by religious nuts with guns." -- P.J. O’Rourke |
Hornady Critical Defense FTX 115 gr 9mm |  |
 06-18-2009, 11:22 PM |  #1 |
| XDTalk Member mtnrunner260 is offline Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 94 | Hornady Critical Defense FTX 115 gr 9mm Picked up a couple boxes of this ammo the other day and shot 25 rounds today through a 9mm subcompact. Accuracy and recoil seemed right in line with other ammo I've shot. The problem was 2 of the rounds didn't fire. The first looked like a light primer strike, my boss agreed (former instructor and a glock armoror) so he knows alot more than me. So put it back in the mag and it failed to fire again but the primer looked like other rounds that had fired. Set that one aside and had another ftf on the next mag. Primer strike looked good on this one. Tried it again as well with no luck. Fired approximately 200 rds of mainly storebought blazer brass and winchester along with my first 20 handloads. Later had my boss load the ftf's randomly in the mag so I could do some malfunction drills... and they both fired on the 3rd attempt The lot # is 3090679 Here are a couple pics of one I found in the dirt. Expansion looks good and you can see a bit of the polymer still attached. Just thought I would share my experiance and would like to hear your thoughts on this ammo. |
| 06-18-2009, 11:44 PM | #2 |
| XDTalk 2K Member  DigMe is offline Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Waco, TX Posts: 2,130 | There have been some serious quality control issues wiu hornady critical defense and when it works it has not tested well in calibrated ballisic gelatin. That's plenty of reason for me to stay away from the stuff. brad __________________ This space for rent. .jpgs and .gifs need not apply. |
| KTOG Forum › KelTec Products › P-3AT (Moderators: Forum Admin, yzguy, TxCajun, JFB) | ‹ Previous topic | Next topic › |
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 Hornady Critical defense MANY FTF (Read 321 times) |
| Eric_in_Nola Grand Poobah   I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 1298 Gender: |  Hornady Critical defense MANY FTF12/16/09 at 14:25:31 |
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| billjohnso20 Grand Poobah  Pistol Packin' Preacher Posts: 2128 Gender: | Re: Hornady Critical defense MANY FTF Reply #1 - 12/17/09 at 11:37:32 |
 10-06-2009, 04:56 PM | |||||
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 I'll just stick with what I know has always worked in all my 9mm's and .380's Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers Will update after Hornady inspects these rounds but no matter what they do or say I will not buy or use Critical Defense ammo. Their regular .380 and .32 auto work fine in my mouse guns so I do not know why they had to mess with success.? __________________ For Office use only |
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 October 19, 2009, 08:41 AM | #1 |
| Member Join Date: April 28, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 191 | Hornady Critical Defense Ammuntion I would like to share an experience with everyone that I recently had with Hornady's new Critical Defense ammunition. I'm wondering if anyone else has had the same problem. I recently had to qualify with my duty weapon and off duty weapon for my department and thought it would be a good chance to see how the new ammo shot through my off duty weapon (Kahr CW9). The first round went off great and the recoil was just what I expected and the bullet went right where I was aiming. When I pulled the trigger a second time all I got was a click from the firing pin striking the primer. I ejected that round, chambered another and squeezed the trigger...click. Nothing. Again I ejected that round, chambered another and squeezed the trigger... BANG! Just what I was wanting. On trigger squeeze #4 I got another bang, but #5 and #6 all I got was the click of the firing pin striking the primer. I picked up the rounds that I had ejected and looked at the primers. All the rounds had nice dents on the primers. I put them back in the magazine and on the second strikes three of the four rounds fired. Thinking that something might even be wrong with my off duty gun, I loaded some more rounds into my duty weapon (Glock 17) and attempted to fire. Of the ten rounds I loaded in my Glock magazine only eight of them fired. Two of them had nice dents on the primers but didnt go bang until I put them back in the magazine and attempted to fire them again. This time they fired. The scariest part about this whole situation is that I had been carrying these rounds in my off duty gun before testing them. (I know, stupid on my part) I have since contacted Hornady and told them of the problem and I have yet to hear back from them. That was over 3 weeks ago. I plan on calling them and personally speaking with a representative. I have used Hornady ammo in the past without any problems which is why I never saw need to test fire any of the rounds before carrying them. I have since switched to Buffalo Bore 124 grain +P hollow points (using Hornady XTP bullets) and have not had a problem. |
| October 20, 2009, 12:50 PM | #17 |
| Member Join Date: April 28, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 191 | I just got off the phone with Hornady and spoke with a technician. Apparently they had not received my e-mail or had not gotten to it yet. He asked if I had the rounds that I had fired, and unfortunately I didn't. I also didn't save the box to give him a lot number. After talking with him he and I both agreed that I must have gotten a bad batch. He did apologize and said that if I had anymore problems with Hornady ammo to save the box and any ammunition and send it back to them for a full replacement. They were very apologetic and very helpful. I would suggest if you have any Hornady CD ammo to try a box or a least a few rounds before you carry it. Of course I do that with any ammo I buy for self defense, I just didnt do it with that particular brand. I'm sure the rest of the Hornady ammo is good and I may buy some more CD when it comes time to rotate the current stuff I have. |
Gender:
Re: New Hornady Critical DefenseReply #27 - 11/28/09 at 21:19:06
Overall I fired about 100 rounds total: Independence FMJ, Golden Sabers, Magtech FMJ and the Hornady Critical Defense. The only ammo that gave me any trouble was the HCD. I checked the primers on the rounds that didn't go off and they were dimpled. I loaded them up again and they went off on the second try.
To my recollection, these are the only failures to fire I've ever expereinced with any of my P3AT's. I had one failure to eject (I had carried and not cleaned the gun in 3 mo. - now I clean it every two weeks regardless) and the two squib rounds I mentioned elsewhere a few days ago. But this was the only ammo in 380 I recall ever firing that just didn't go bang.
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| 11-07-2009, 05:39 PM | |||
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| I was at Clark Custom Guns a couple months back picking up one gun and dropping another for some work. While there the subject of J-frames came up. We talked about our carry loads and one of the gunsmiths had tried the Hornady CD in his J-frame. He ran into the same failure to fire issues. If a gunsmith from one of the top shops in the country has ammo that don't fire, it ain't the gun. __________________ A mind is like a parachute. Neither functions properly unless fully opened. My name is Hank and I'm an IPSC shooter. |
Hi Rubb! Yes, the price couldn't have been better. Thank you again for "funding" this little experiment.
Sadly, though, it looks like I am by no means the first to run into these failures to fire with HCD. That really is too bad. The round seemed so promising. I guess I'll stick to Gold Dots (when I can find them) and the Independence FMJ. The Independence stuff seems pretty hot just based upon felt recoil. Staggering them with Gold Dots seems like a good plan for me.
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| tracker Supreme Member    Posts: 1571 |
Dave, I am sorry to hear about Critical Defense in the Seecamp .380. It's a different animal but Doug Hornady performed an impressive display with the LCP and his ammo on youtube. Since the Seecamp is so ammo specific it would probably not ever work for the reasons you stated. Do Doug Hornady and Larry Seecamp know about this issue? |
Rohrbaugh Range Reports (Moderators: DDGator, R9SCarry)  Mixed day at the range | « Previous topic | Next topic » | |
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A second pull fired them off. This is a horrible ratio. 
It would move back a little bit, but not open. I thought I was going to have to send it home, but after working it over and over, a bit more force each time, it broke free. A few more cycles felt like it was breaking free. Now its perfectly smooth again.
| sdlsaginaw Full Member Posts: 97 |
Not sure what was going on there, and haven't had time to mess with it further. I'll talk to the factory when things calm down a bit around here. I switched between the PMC and the HCD a few times. PMC never failed, HCD had trouble every clip. Weird. I've been seriously jonsin' for a Savage 93R17BTVS (.17 HMR) lately. I don't know exactly why other than the bug bit me. I also looked at a Henry lever action youth .22 for my grandson today. Really nice little rifle. His two grandpas might just go in on one for him and put it away for a couple years until he's ready. |
Norm, I can tell you for a fact, I had 2 brand new pistols at the range in the .380-auto caliber. One was a Sig-P232, Ruger LCP. Also had non-fire issues with 9mm Luger Hornady "Critical Defense" ammo, fired in a KEL-TEC P-11 and Sig-P239 in 9mm Luger.
Now we were testing various calibers, to determine how much penetration each caliber obtained when shot into wet newspaper.
We used several types of "self-defense" ammo as well as FMJ ammo understand. However, the Hornady ammo had at least 10 failures out of 4 boxes of their Critical Defense ammo.
We ran this ammo back through the pistols 3 times and still NO BANG!!! I reported it to Hornady in a phone call and they said I must have been Limp Wristing the pistol, that they have had no such complaints so far.......they never did get back with me again. I understand it is possible to "limp wrist" a KEL-TEC or Kahr but not hardly a Sig P-232 pistol.
We only had problems with the Hornady ammo and we tested at least 7 different brands of ammo that day. I took the ammo down to the store where I purchased it and gave it to the owner. I will NOT use Hornady ammo in any of my pistols again.
Now we were testing various calibers, to determine how much penetration each caliber obtained when shot into wet newspaper.
We used several types of "self-defense" ammo as well as FMJ ammo understand. However, the Hornady ammo had at least 10 failures out of 4 boxes of their Critical Defense ammo.
We ran this ammo back through the pistols 3 times and still NO BANG!!! I reported it to Hornady in a phone call and they said I must have been Limp Wristing the pistol, that they have had no such complaints so far.......they never did get back with me again. I understand it is possible to "limp wrist" a KEL-TEC or Kahr but not hardly a Sig P-232 pistol.
We only had problems with the Hornady ammo and we tested at least 7 different brands of ammo that day. I took the ammo down to the store where I purchased it and gave it to the owner. I will NOT use Hornady ammo in any of my pistols again.
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Thank You Veterans!
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I opend up a new box of Hornady Critical Defense .380, and I had 2 FTF rounds out of 4 thsat I shot. I checked the rounds and the primer was clearly dimpled. I went on to shoot some Winchester White Box with no issue. Pretty scary, and a good reason to test your ammo before carrying. I have never had this happen before?
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I'ld have to see some proof of that. It is likely that lot of Hornady ammo has a problem. It's almost impossible to make a primer that has a shelf life & control that. First LEO that dies from an inert primer, his family is going to own that manuf. Time to take the tin foil hat off.
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After my reply to them, they wrote me back saying they did check the primer seating depth and that it was within SAAMI specs. I replied that that measurement was useless as the primer had already been struck by the firing pin, so yes a second strike will probably set it off. They also said that the primers they are using are very hard which I replied so are the CCI and Wolf that I use.
They then offered to send me a new box from a different lot number but feared I would have the same problem due to the "hard" primers.
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FROM MIDWAY USA
Thank You Veterans!
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| August 29, 2009, 11:25 PM | #49 |
| Member Join Date: September 1, 2008 Posts: 41 | Over on the Handgun forum on AR15.com, someone has posted about a failure to fire issue on a couple of rounds of 9mm Critical Defense. There was another post from someone who had had the same problem and spoke to Hornady about it. Apparently, Hornady changed from a nickel colored primer to a brass colored primer to address a no-fire issue. However, the CD that the OP had the problem with had the brass primer. Now I do not normally spread rumors and innuendos, but since the Critical Defense seems to be gaining popularity, I'd like to hear if anyone here has had any failures to fire using these rounds. I just picked up a bunch of it for my PT-709, and now I plan to put a bunch of it through the gun to see if I've got any problems. |
I opend up a new box of Hornady Critical Defense .380, and I had 2 FTF rounds out of 4 thsat I shot. I checked the rounds and the primer was clearly dimpled. I went on to shoot some Winchester White Box with no issue. Pretty scary, and a good reason to test your ammo before carrying. I have never had this happen before?
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I'ld have to see some proof of that. It is likely that lot of Hornady ammo has a problem. It's almost impossible to make a primer that has a shelf life & control that. First LEO that dies from an inert primer, his family is going to own that manuf. Time to take the tin foil hat off.
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| Man, it looks like the whole face of the primer is collapsed into that firing pin strike. I think they should've gone off. It might be a just a bad combination, but is'nt that why we test for reliability? Maybe you'll get some free ammo anyway.  |
| #10 10-05-2009, 11:54 PM | ||||
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| Definately looks like they should have gone bang. I will remember to avoid Hornady loaded ammo. It doesn't look like your firing pin is unnecessarily pointed to me, maybe narrower than most. I'd bet it was a defective batch of primers. |
After my reply to them, they wrote me back saying they did check the primer seating depth and that it was within SAAMI specs. I replied that that measurement was useless as the primer had already been struck by the firing pin, so yes a second strike will probably set it off. They also said that the primers they are using are very hard which I replied so are the CCI and Wolf that I use.
They then offered to send me a new box from a different lot number but feared I would have the same problem due to the "hard" primers.
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FROM MIDWAY USA
Brian Magby of Houston, TX
Date posted: 7/2/2009
I initially purchased 100 rounds of this ammo and fired 75 rounds through my Springfield EMP 9mm on the first outing. I experienced 2 malfunctions occurring in the last 9 rounds, (last magazine) of the 75 rounds that I fired. One malfunction was due to a bur at the tip of the bullet near the red insert, which caused a failure to feed. I removed and inspected the round, then re-chambered it and it fed and fired normally. The second malfunction was a dud primer causing a failure to fire. I removed the round and inspected it. It had a good primer strike but failed to fire. I recently purchased another box to see if it would function 100%, or experience similar problems. I noticed that the primers in this new box had been changed from the nickel primers that were in the first 100 rounds that I bought to brass/gold primers in this new box. All 25 rounds from this new box functioned and fired perfectly through my Springfield EMP. I called Hornady and asked them about the primer change and I was told that limited supply dictated the use of the nickel primers. I was also told that there had been some reports about the nickel primers being too hard and not igniting in some firearms and that they had since changed to the brass/gold primers that will be shipping from now on. Given the current state of the ammo market with ammo manufactures operating 24/7 to try and catch up with the ammo shortage, coupled with the fact that this is a new product line, I feel confident that Hornady will have any quality control issues sorted out and that this will be an excellent product. I will continue to test this ammo and report back if I experience any additional problems.
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FROM THE SEECAMP FORUM
Just got back from the range. Sorry to say I was only able to fire off one round of Hornady's Critical Defense for the .380. I had run Silvertips and Gold Dots with no problem, but I was stopped in my tracks with the first CD. It fired and then jammed in the barrel so harshly that the Seecamp's day was over! I just now was able to disassemble it in order to get a pair of pliers on the shell. It took a hell of a lot of twisting to get it out of there. When it jammed, it wouldn't allow the slide to move at all, so it wasn't back far enough to get the punch onto the plunger.
I ordered two boxes of this, but I'm now stuck with 49 cartridges! I wish it would have worked (and it may, as someone else said they filed the tip down) but the cartridge appears to be too long for my Seecamp .380.
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| #49 | |
| Member Join Date: September 1, 2008 Posts: 42 | Over on the Handgun forum on AR15.com, someone has posted about a failure to fire issue on a couple of rounds of 9mm Critical Defense. There was another post from someone who had had the same problem and spoke to Hornady about it. Apparently, Hornady changed from a nickel colored primer to a brass colored primer to address a no-fire issue. However, the CD that the OP had the problem with had the brass primer. |
| August 30, 2009, 12:56 PM | #51 |
| Member Join Date: April 11, 2009 Location: The best place to die. Posts: 18 |  ...to fire or not to fire.... Well, if I owned any guns...I'd be more concerned about the reports of failures-to-fire with the CD cartridges than I would be about the question about whether it expands better or worse than brand-X or whether it has enough velocity. There's a number of threads floating about on several of the gun forums reporting multiple failures-to-fire-per-box . Not the kinda thing one wants to hear about a Self-Defense cartridge, I would think.  |
| October 13, 2009, 08:47 AM | #78 |
| Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Posts: 1 | Just found this forum and thread while searching the net to see if failure to fires with the Hornady Critical defense was common or if it was just me. Seems to be a real issue. I have a Ruger LCP 380. Picked up two boxes of 25 @ Bass Pro a while back. I have shot several magazines of Remington UMC without a single problem. Fired very few Remington Golden Sabers as well and had no problems. Two out of four attempts to fire the Hornady Critical defense went boom. The other two just "Click". Perfect strike in the center of the primer on both failures. Both boxes are from the same Lot# and have a nickel primer. I only attempted to fire the four rounds. With a success rate of 50% (2 out of 4), I have ZERO confidence in this ammo. I have spoken to Hornady and will be shipping the two boxes off today. I wanted a refund of my $$, but they won't do that and neither will Bass Pro. Instead Hornady said they will ship me out the same crap that I don't trust at all + some extra for my troubles. That's great. Maybe they have changed primers and fixed the issue, but I still won't be carrying this stuff or buying any other Hornady products. One lesson learned, always test your ammo! Links to other problems with the CD.... |
FROM THE SEECAMP FORUM
Just got back from the range. Sorry to say I was only able to fire off one round of Hornady's Critical Defense for the .380. I had run Silvertips and Gold Dots with no problem, but I was stopped in my tracks with the first CD. It fired and then jammed in the barrel so harshly that the Seecamp's day was over! I just now was able to disassemble it in order to get a pair of pliers on the shell. It took a hell of a lot of twisting to get it out of there. When it jammed, it wouldn't allow the slide to move at all, so it wasn't back far enough to get the punch onto the plunger.
I ordered two boxes of this, but I'm now stuck with 49 cartridges! I wish it would have worked (and it may, as someone else said they filed the tip down) but the cartridge appears to be too long for my Seecamp .380.
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