Teddy's Actions

With all the discussion about integral gun locks causing gun failures (lockups, jams, etc.) and the lack of credible cases to study, I've decided to use my Super Administrator Powers to float a topic that will allow individuals who have personally suffered an Integral Lock Induced Failure (ILIF) to post a detailed account of their ordeal. Others may post questions specifically addressed to the individual who have experienced the ILIF, but once answered, I will delete the post with the question and maybe edit the answer into the post with original ILIF account. The idea here is to creat a place where there is basically one ILIF for every post entered.

Here's the format I would like followed while posting your ILIFs.

Gun Make: (ILIFs don't just happen to S&Ws)

Gun Model: (For S&Ws, please include engineering - "dash" - number.)

Age of Gun: (Number of rounds fired can be listed here as well.)

Options on Gun: (Described any parts that were replaced or gunsmithing applied to the gun; grips, "trigger job," sights, springs, etc.)

Description of ILIF: (Date of ILIF? What were you doing with the gun when the ILIF occurred? How did your gun fail to function as a result? If ILIF occurred while shooting, please include as many details about the ammo as you can recall.)

Confirmation: (How are you certain that the integral lock caused the ILIF?)

Corrective Action: (Were you able to clear the problem and how? Often times the corrective action can serve as the "Confirmation.")

Manufacture Contacted?: (Yes or No. If yes, what did the manufacture claim caused the problem?)

Again, I want to keep this post free of unnecessary cross talk. If I find anything other then ILIF case posts in here, I will probably delete those posts; consider this forewarning.

Right now, I know of only three forum members who have experienced an ILIF. They are forum members, Joni_Lynn, Erich, and 45Wheelgun. I'd like to invite these three individuals to take the time to repost their ILIF stories within this topic (hopefully for the last time).

Sincerely,

sprey
S&W Forum Administrator

Okay, here goes!

Gun Make: Smith and Wesson

Gun Model: 60-15

Age of Gun: perhaps a couple of weeks; had been fired under 200 rounds.

Options on Gun: bone stock

Description of ILIF: I oafishly knocked the unloaded gun off a counter onto the hardwood floor. The "Gun locked" flag partially rose and got situated somewhat crossways in its channel, locking the gun up. I had to go to the safe, find the keys, and then fully lock and unlock (simply attempting to unlock the mechanism didn't work) the mechanism in order to get the "Gun locked" flag properly situated in its channel. The gun worked fine thereafter.

Confirmation: (How are you certain that the integral lock caused the ILIF?) Well, if the "Gun locked" flag hadn't been there to get crossways in its channel, it wouldn't have happened.

Corrective Action: (Were you able to clear the problem and how? Often times the corrective action can serve as the "Confirmation.") I had to go to the safe, find the keys, and then fully lock and unlock (simply attempting to unlock the mechanism didn't work) the mechanism in order to get the "Gun locked" flag properly situated in its channel. The gun worked fine thereafter.


Manufacture Contacted?: No. I felt like a doofus for having knocked the gun off the counter onto the floor, and it was apparent that the problem had been resolved. The bigger problem - that I found myself worrying about whether the gun was trustworthy (since dropping a gun is easily envisioned during a struggle) - could not have been addressed by contacting S&W (they would not have taken the lock out for me). I wound up trading the gun off, and am now a happy man (except for the continuing resurrection of this topic on the board - thanks sprey for putting up a once-and-for-all repository for these stories so that we can get on with talking about fun topics!

Osprey,

Thanks for the opportunity to only have to do this one more time.

Gun Make: Smith & Wesson

Gun Model: 625-10 Note: This is the 2" TiScan model

Age of Gun: Brand new - First trip to the range

Options on Gun: Stock 625-10, NIB

Description of ILIF: Took my brand new 625-10 to the range for the first time. I was shooting Winchester White Box .45acp from Wal-Mart. After about 100 rounds, the gun malfunctioned. The entire gun was locked up with the hammer about 3/4 of the way back. The cylinder was locked into battery, I could not get the hammer to move, either using the trigger or using as much brut force as I was willing to use on a loaded, ready to fire weapon.

Corrective Action: With the help of the range officer, we used a screwdriver to "force" the hammer back fully while attempting to hold the gun in a safe direction. Once we had the hammer back, we were able to lower it safely by pulling the trigger and slowly lowering the hammer. We cleared the gun of ammunition and carefully inspected it to try to figure out what has caused the failure. At this point the lock was NOT engaged, and for that matter it had never been engaged. The action had a very gritty feel to it as if the insides were full of sand. After cycling the action a bunch of times, the gritty feel seemed to go away. We then loaded it again (in hind sight this was a rather stupid thing to do). I was able to fire several more moon clips out of it before it failed again. The second failure was identical to the first. We cleared the weapon again, and gave it a third try. After several more moonclips it locked up for the third and last time.

Manufacture Contacted: We called S&W, they suggested on the phone that it might be an "Strain screw" that need adjustment.

Confirmation: S&W had me send it in, and verified that it was the "lock cam spring" that had failed.

Manufactures Response: They offered to repair and return the gun. I refused to accept that, as this was intended to be a CCW weapon that I would be using to defend my life. They accepted my feelings and OFFERED a complete refund, or another gun. Since they could not provide me with a gun without a lock, I took their offer of a full refund. They had me provide them with a receipt, and then issued me a complete refund, including all taxes and shipping costs incurred.

This all happened over a year ago, (around August 2004). I used the refund to purchase a beautiful factory engraved Model 66-1 2.5". While I will never buy a self defense gun with a lock in it, I might purchase a target/sporting firearm with a lock, if there were no "pre-lock" option available (IE: S&W 500). I realize my experience is the exception not the rule, but it did happen to me and it MIGHT happen to you. I hope if it does happen to you, that you don't loose your life over a defective gun.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Osprey, 04 November 2005 07:38 PM

Sir
Two weeks ago I was out in the desert shooting several handguns. One of which was my fairly new Smith & Wesson 4" Model 25-13 Mtn Gun.
This revolver has never failed in any way prior to this incident. I purchased it new in 2004. It's had a total of 600 rounds through it. One of the most accurate 45's I own. The gun is totally stock.
I was shooting Federal 225gr HP semi wadcutters when the failure happened. The flag came up part way after the shot. This totally locked up the action. I did not have a key with me, so when I got home I found the keys and like the previous poster, I had to turn it to the lock position then to the unlock position.
I did not bother to contact Smith & Wesson, All they would do is to "redo" the lock mechanism. I have never put to much stock in what I read in gun forums so I never paid any attention to the posts regarding lock failures.
I own several Smith's, and even though I've strongly disliked the look of the lock, I figured I'd never need the key.
When I got home from that shooting session,I looked up the post with pictures on your forum regarding the cutting off the nub on the lock flag plate and that did the trick. Now, I will never have that problem crop up again.
I figure since I live in a Free State (Colorado)I will never have to worry about the idiocy of a internal lock (like Slave State Kalifornia and a few others). That lock was just part of Smith & Wesson's deal to appease Bill Clinton. Maybe with the new laws being passed in Congress to protect gun manufacturing
from frivolous lawsuits, Smith & Wesson will regain their senses.
Rogue..
PS I also had bought one of the new Model 520's that I performed the same operation on.

Osprey, If you want the pics, you can post them.



500MN, in the future, I wouldn't mind having your "solution" posted within this thread, but this will probably need to wait until I get good, legally sound, disclaimer from the forum owner.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Osprey, 29 October 2005 09:05 AM

Heres my S&W failure story....
Last year I bought a 642 w/ crimson trace grips. I put maybe 75 to 100 rounds through it. I havent shot it in months till this past weekend when I decided to take it to the range. I got about 20 rounds through it no problem, reloaded and tried to fire it and the trigger was locked up solid. I had never engaged the lock before but tried using the keys when I got home hoping It might be the fix.

Unfortunatly its a no go, the trigger is locked solid! I sent it back to smith through the gun shop, so its a wait and see situation now.

Heres the stats
Gun make=S&W

model=642 dont know dash ##

age= less than a year

options= crimson trace

ammo used= magteck 158gr flat top.

At this point I cant say for sure wheather it was an ILIF problem but I will keep you folks
posted on developments, I am very curious what
S&W will say.

So what did S&W say?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Osprey, 09 December 2005 09:05 PM

I have posted this information in past threads about lock failures but will add it to this thread.


In 2004 I had a brand new 642-2 which would engage the trigger lock when fired. The only way to get the gun to fire again was to put the little key in and unlock it. 5 to 10 rounds later it would lock again. (I now have a spare gun key on all my key rings, plus extra keys in my range bags.) This was witnessed by several people including the range officer who shot the 642-2 and had it happen to him too. He asked that I not fire it anymore and I agreed.

The problem was fixed by S&W in less than a week and according to the person who worked on it, "It had a spring replaced". Since the lock was fixed I have fired several hundred rounds out of it and it is working fine. As we all know any part can fail, what the lock does is add additional parts which might fail and thus decreasing the overall reliability of the weapon.

Every handgun I have ever owned up until that point was a Smith & Wesson revolver. I have added a few new brands and have not purchased a new S&W with a lock on it since this happened. Although I have to admit I really want a TR model 22 and might make and exception.

As a final note, on the 642-2 which had the problem, the lock did not make a good "Click" as do the two other S&W I have with the Lock.


Jay

Gun Make: Smith & Wesson

Gun Model:22-4, aka Thunder Ranch take two

Age of Gun: Brand spanking new, first outing.

Options on Gun: Bone stock.

Description of ILIF: Tuesday, December 27, 2005. First range session. On the third moon clip, in the forth batch of moon clips (I have a total of five moon clips, six rounds per clip, so after round 102 for the first failure), the revolver “locked up” and would not fire. I had been shooting single action and was in the process of cocking the hammer when the first failure occurred. Ammunition was 230 grain, Winchester white box, FMJ.

Confirmation: The little flag was partially raised, and after corrective action, was able to fire again, see below.

Corrective Action: I was able to return the firearm to firing condition by inserting the key, fully engaging the lock and then unlocking.

Manufacture Contacted?: Not yet, they are closed for the holiday. Will e-mail and report back. Not to thrilled with the idea of sending it in for a “fix” as I had planned on disabling the lock anyway.

Did it happen more than once, or was it a fluke? It happened a total of five times, between round number 102 and 180, had a total of 300 rounds of .45 ACP, came home with 120.

Robert

UPDATE: Well I got a response about the lock failure from Smith & Wesson yesterday. As expected, they simply said they would return it to factory specs. Seems to me that it should have been within factory specs when it left the factory, so I'll go with my original plan and remove the flag (and along with it the ability to lock). I'm keeping all the parts, so if there is a problem in the future I'll be able to put them back in and send it back for repair. The SHOT show is a month away, I might be cornering someone about this.

Robert

I just had that wonderful experience with my 329

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gun Make: Smith and Wesson

Gun Model: 329PD

Age of gun 1 week old

Options: Bone stock

Description I had a problem with the lock self-engaging under recoil I was shooting 240 PMCs and 300 hornady loads on a cool, dry day. The gun was working somewhere around 40 rounds total on the odometer when the ILIF occurred.

Confirmation: looked closely, I could see the locking mechanism (flag) sticking up next to the hammer.

Corrective Action: I was able to wiggle the hammer and push it down. At that time it popped back into place and the action was free again. I then used the key to test the lock and it worked with the key.

letter/e-mail sent to Smith and Wesson No response thus far.
shooter429

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 500 Magnum Nut:
Osprey, If you want the pics, you can post them.



Have any of you done this? Did ya simply grind it down with a Dremel tool?

quote:

Originally posted by nohorse:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 500 Magnum Nut:
Osprey, If you want the pics, you can post them.



Have any of you done this? Did ya simply grind it down with a Dremel tool?

That looks like too much metal for a Dremel. I am going to use a bench rinder on mine and when I get 99% of the metal remover I'll go to the Dremel. A word of caution, goimg too fast may case the metal to heat up and heating can change the temper of the metal.

"That looks like too much metal for a Dremel. I am going to use a bench rinder on mine and when I get 99% of the metal remover I'll go to the Dremel. A word of caution, goimg too fast may case the metal to heat up and heating can change the temper of the metal."

Thanks and good idea. If ya overheat this part would it really matter?

quote:

Originally posted by nohorse:
"That looks like too much metal for a Dremel. I am going to use a bench rinder on mine and when I get 99% of the metal remover I'll go to the Dremel. A word of caution, goimg too fast may case the metal to heat up and heating can change the temper of the metal."

Thanks and good idea. If ya overheat this part would it really matter?

I honestly do not know but it is better to err on the side of caution. Heating any metal can change it’s strength, temper, and possibly lead to failure by cracking. Maybe you can grind it till it gets so hot that you can’t hold it and it won’t hurt the part. But why take the risk when all you need to do is dip it in a container of water every once in a while to keep it from getting hot.

Again...good point! Thanks!